The Bible and Underaged Sex
Jonathan Rowe on Jun 13th 2007
I’m not sure if I should give this crank any more attention than he’s already gotten from Positive Liberty and Dispatches from the Culture Wars. However, I will note, with irony, that this “Christian Libertarian Theocrat” apparently doesn’t even know the Bible as he reads things into it that aren’t there.
Mr. Craig seems to enjoy “grouping” homosexuality, bestiality, and pedophilia together in an effort to show that he’d treat all three of these behaviors, explicitly condemned in the Bible, equally (that is, he’d decriminalize all of them).
Jason is intelligent enough to realize that I believe child molestation, besitality, and homosexuality are grossly sinful (the Bible calls them an “abomination”) and should never be allowed to occur on this planet.
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I spent quite some time describing these efforts in my post to Jason, with links to other sources, which made clear, I think, that I want to eliminate child molestation, bestiality, and homosexuality, but not by passively waiting for “the government”….
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When our society departs from Christian teachings regarding homosexuality, bestiality and “intergenerational sex,” we lose the possibility of sustaining a free market economy and the rule of law.
The problem is nowhere does the Bible forbid pedophilia as it explicitly does with homosexuality and bestiality. Indeed, according to Ancient Jewish tradition men become adults — hence “marriageable” and ready for sex — at 13 and girls at 12.
Indeed, Mr. Craig fondly notes that cross-culturally (Ancient Greece, Rome, etc.) homosexuality often involved pederasty. But most of that pederasty involved boys no younger than 12 of 13, the very age the “Judeo-Christian” tradition set for consent until modern post-1960s sexual morality started to demand age for consent more uniformly rise closer to 18.
(I should also note that cross-culturally, much homosexual pederasty is committed by heterosexual men — indeed, men who get married, sire families, and flourish in heterosexual relationships. And a boy at the age of 13 is physically about the closet substitute for a woman there is other than a convincing transvestite. Hence they are straight men using teenage boys as substitutes for women. This isn’t common in Western culture anymore, but was the dominant form in Ancient Greece where a huge percentage of the male citizen class engaged in such behaviors but still married and raised families. And this also aptly describes most of the homosexual pederasty that currently takes place in Arab cultures, where because of polygamy and sequestration of women, heterosexual males abuse teenage boys for sexual release because no women are available.)
The following from Mark E. Pietrzyk shows that almost every behavior featured on the notorious Dateline NBC’s To Catch a Predator series is biblically justified, at least in the age sense (not in the sense that they promote fornication).
An honest examination of the historical record indicates that Biblical law and the Judeo-Christian tradition, far from condemning pedophilia, often condoned sexual relations between adults and children. The contemporary social and legal taboo against sex with children developed only gradually over the centuries, and did not become firmly established until the late nineteenth/early twentieth centuries. The very concepts of age of consent and statutory rape did not derive from Biblical orthodoxy and ancient tradition, but rather evolved out of the same modernist conceptions of individual rights and equality which underlie the contemporary struggle for gay rights. Thus, if the slippery slope argument has any validity at all, it more aptly applies to contemporary proponents of Biblical orthodoxy and “traditional family values” than to proponents of gay rights.
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More detailed information on the sexual ethics of ancient Judaism can be found in the Talmud. The Talmud is the record of oral law and commentaries which supplements the written law of Scripture; in Jewish tradition, the oral law is part of the divine revelation received by Moses on Mount Sinai.
According to the Talmud, the recommended age for marriage is sometime after twelve for females, and thirteen for males. Marriage below these ages was generally frowned upon.
Strangely (and previously unbeknownst to me), the Talmud outright endorses pedophilia:
However, a father was allowed to betroth his daughter to another man at an earlier age, and sexual intercourse was regarded as a valid means of sealing a betrothal. The age limit for betrothal through sexual intercourse was shockingly low. According to the Talmud, “A girl of the age of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse.”42
This age limit was apparently chosen because, according to Rabbinical discussion, the features of virginity in the young female (the hymen, which breaks and bleeds the first time after intercourse) did not finish developing until the age of three years and one day. Intercourse with a female younger than this was like “putting a finger in the eye,”43 that is, as putting a finger in the eye causes it to tear and tear again, intercourse with a female younger than three causes the hymen to initially bleed but then to grow back again, restoring the sign of virginity. Thus intercourse with a female younger than three years and one day was not a crime; it was simply invalid as a means of sealing betrothal by ending her virgin status, since the signs of virginity would eventually reappear. According to the Talmud, “When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing, for when a girl is less than [three years], it is as if one puts the finger into the eye.”44
Of course, none of this is meant to endorse these biblically justified practices of underaged sex, but rather to show that as a book of comprehensive morality, the Bible is woefully inadequate.
Filed in The Belfry, The Bench, The Boudoir, The Bureau
If puberty occurs a 9 or 10 and one lived to be 40, it would seem logical to be married at 12 or 13, since the women could have at least 14 children. Three years and a day means the female becomes property, what has the slave have to do with morality.
The problem is nowhere does the Bible forbid pedophilia as it explicitly does with homosexuality and bestiality.>>
God condemns fornication. Fornication is any sexual relations outside of a marriage relationship between a man and a woman. The talmud blatantly contradicts the bible, is not inspired, so discard it.
But from the beginning of creation God made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother And be joined to his wife, And the two shall become one flesh. So, they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, Let not man put asunder.
Jesus, Mark 10:6-9
Regards
Exactly. You can only get a biblical condemnation of pedophilia from the Bible by tying it to fornication (or if between man and boy, to homosexuality); but most folks view child molestation worse than simply “shacking up.” Or by quoting some other passage which inveighs against harming children generally, because there are no specific proof texts on pedophilia.
I should also note, James, that “child marriages” would be vetted by the fornication standard. And indeed, until recently, child marriages were not entirely uncommon or viewed as morally wrong in Jewish or Christian societies. This is especially true if we define a “child” as including early puberty 12-15.
I love how he refers to pedophilia as “intergenerational sex.” What the hell is that? I’m 27 years old. What if I have a thing for 60 year old women? I don’t, incidentally, but what if I did? Would Mr. Craig find that to be an abomination?
This guy is such an idiot. I always joke about the nuts in the party when telling people I’m a libertarian. I joke about the nuts even when talking to people who, while not libertarian themselves, are sympathetic to libertarian ideas. But the fact that the LP can run this asshole as a candidate… well, any chance of me giving money or support to the LP is about as likely as me plastering every inch of my bedroom walls with posters of Chairman Mao.
“But the fact that the LP can run this asshole as a candidate… ”
I’m not sure if they are actually doing that. He may have just unilaterally declared himself an LP candidate without getting their imprimatur.
“I’m not sure if they are actually doing that. He may have just unilaterally declared himself an LP candidate without getting their imprimatur.”
I really hope you’re right about that. If that’s the case, I hope the LP issues a statement on their website distancing themselves from Craig.
Talmud is not considered theologically authoritative, even by Jews. The Rabbinic tradition is more a philosophical inquiry, a wisdom tradition.
And since it dates from after the birth of Christ, and indeed occasionally attacks Christianity itself, it has zero currency among Christians. A non-starter here.
I should also note, James, that “child marriages” would be vetted by the fornication standard. And indeed, until recently, child marriages were not entirely uncommon or viewed as morally wrong in Jewish or Christian societies. This is especially true if we define a “child” as including early puberty 12-15.>>
You would have to find proof in the early church or in ancient Israel affirming that age. Twelve is too low, fifteen was probably the starting point for an abiding Israel.
Talmud is not considered theologically authoritative, even by Jews. The Rabbinic tradition is more a philosophical inquiry, a wisdom tradition.>>
Tell that to the rabbis, they believe the oral interpretation is authentic, that’s why they don’t accept the bible. They aren’t allowed to read Isaiah 53 and many other passages because they are so obviously about Jesus.
Regards
“Twelve is too low.”
12 is not too low; it’s the age according to Ancient Jewish tradition that girls become adults. Or have you never heard of the Batmistfa?
12 is not too low; it’s the age according to Ancient Jewish tradition that girls become adults. Or have you never heard of the Batmistfa?>>
Which proves my point. That age is below the age of accountability and for marriage, it’s not biblical, so discard the information.
Isaiah 8:20 (King James Version)
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Maybe I’m a little dense, but so what if the Bible condemns homosexuality, bestiality, and “intergenerational sex?” To cite that ancient book as an authority seems problematic in the following:
“If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father and mother, who does not heed them when they discipline him, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his town at the gate of that place. They shall say to the elders of his town, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death. So you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel will hear, and be afraid.” Dt 21:18-21.
So, when parents start stoning their sons to death, I’ll start questioning their sanity, not yielding to their authority! And until they start following their authority by stoning their sons, why are citing it as if it should be my authority, when they don’t follow their own authority?
12 is not too low; it’s the age according to Ancient Jewish tradition that girls become adults. Or have you never heard of the Batmistfa?>>
You’re right Jon, I take my comment back. When her period came, girls were considered women, and 12 seemed to be the age.
“If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father and mother, who does not heed them when they discipline him, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his town at the gate of that place. They shall say to the elders of his town, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death. So you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel will hear, and be afraid.” Dt 21:18-21.>>
That was for Israel only. God knew what would happen when lawlessness was rampant in a nation, just look at the world today. It’s ready for judgment right now. Because you and I are a sinner, our justice is perverted, but not God’s. If God did not judge sin, He wouldn’t be Holy, which would not make Him God. Be not deceived, the wicked will be judged.
So, when parents start stoning their sons to death, I’ll start questioning their sanity, not yielding to their authority! And until they start following their authority by stoning their sons, why are citing it as if it should be my authority, when they don’t follow their own authority?
Read above.
Regards
I honestly think that most of you are missing the point. It does not matter who cites what text to argue which point. What matters is that child molestation is wrong.
Children under three may heal, but what of later life? The mental scarring left by such an act is something that will never heal, ever. I know from close experience working with victims of pedophilia.
Why are you all quoting religious texts to explain why child molestation is not bad if it is a social practice:
>>12 is not too low; it’s the age according to Ancient Jewish tradition that girls become adults. Or have you never heard of the Batmistfa? >>You’re right Jon, I take my comment back. When her period came, girls were considered women, and 12 seemed to be the age.