Comments on: The Religious Rights’ Unreal Understanding of Homosexuality http://www.positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:34:31 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Positive Liberty » Psychological Suffering http://www.positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-700741 Positive Liberty » Psychological Suffering Mon, 30 Jun 2008 03:39:30 +0000 http://positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-700741 [...] suffered slavery or Jim Crow. But, that doesn’t mean gays haven’t suffered. In one of my most widely read posts I noted: Homosexuals historically have been subject to sodomy laws which led to imprisonment or [...] [...] suffered slavery or Jim Crow. But, that doesn’t mean gays haven’t suffered. In one of my most widely read posts I noted: Homosexuals historically have been subject to sodomy laws which led to imprisonment or [...]

]]> By: Sean http://www.positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-690988 Sean Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:38:24 +0000 http://positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-690988 I would guess that gays don't actually have a very different socio-economic from straights, or may actually be worse off. Most studies into this sort of thing encounter a problem, which is that the most likely people to be both out and accessible to surveys about homosexuality are the people who are most confident and independent, and those people tend to be better paid. My guess is also that the sort of people who have low income are the same ones who tend to feel most constricted by the culture in which they were raised and/or in which they find themselves. I would guess that gays don’t actually have a very different socio-economic from straights, or may actually be worse off. Most studies into this sort of thing encounter a problem, which is that the most likely people to be both out and accessible to surveys about homosexuality are the people who are most confident and independent, and those people tend to be better paid. My guess is also that the sort of people who have low income are the same ones who tend to feel most constricted by the culture in which they were raised and/or in which they find themselves.

]]> By: conor http://www.positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-688228 conor Thu, 12 Jun 2008 01:40:50 +0000 http://positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-688228 The assumption that gays are better educated and wealthier than heterosexuals, i feel, is completely stereotypical. A huge number of gays are just regular Joe's, who happen to have sex with other Joe's. Mill workers, truck drivers, farmers... While it was said that many gays migrate to urban areas, many prefer a quiet rural existence, out or not. The assumption that gays are better educated and wealthier than heterosexuals, i feel, is completely stereotypical. A huge number of gays are just regular Joe’s, who happen to have sex with other Joe’s. Mill workers, truck drivers, farmers… While it was said that many gays migrate to urban areas, many prefer a quiet rural existence, out or not.

]]> By: ebohlman http://www.positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-670966 ebohlman Mon, 12 May 2008 06:50:15 +0000 http://positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-670966 Yet another complicating factor is that how people define "gay" varies with class (and with ethnicity which is correlated with class). In general, more affluent people have a broader definition of "gay" then do less affluent people; the latter might not regard themselves as "gay" if they're "tops" (or, heaven forbid, prefer non-penetrative sexual activities) or if their non-sexual behavior is conventionally masculine. Most recent studies show that 2.5%-3% of men identify themselves as gay, but there's an equal-sized group that doesn't identify as gay but doesn't differ in terms of sexual attractions and behavior from those who do. And there's also an equal-sized group who identify as straight, but engage in a non-trivial amount of same-sex activity. Now everyone in those three groups would be regarded as "homosexual" by the anti-gay crowd, but at most one-third of them would pop up in any survey that asks people if they're gay. And there's good reason to believe that that third would be, on average, more affluent than the rest. Yet another complicating factor is that how people define “gay” varies with class (and with ethnicity which is correlated with class). In general, more affluent people have a broader definition of “gay” then do less affluent people; the latter might not regard themselves as “gay” if they’re “tops” (or, heaven forbid, prefer non-penetrative sexual activities) or if their non-sexual behavior is conventionally masculine. Most recent studies show that 2.5%-3% of men identify themselves as gay, but there’s an equal-sized group that doesn’t identify as gay but doesn’t differ in terms of sexual attractions and behavior from those who do. And there’s also an equal-sized group who identify as straight, but engage in a non-trivial amount of same-sex activity.

Now everyone in those three groups would be regarded as “homosexual” by the anti-gay crowd, but at most one-third of them would pop up in any survey that asks people if they’re gay. And there’s good reason to believe that that third would be, on average, more affluent than the rest.

]]> By: Joel http://www.positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-670240 Joel Sun, 11 May 2008 02:16:57 +0000 http://positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-670240 "First, whatever the legal or constitutional issues involved (whether this is a private school not bound by the First Amendment or a state school that is), it was lame to punish this woman for writing the column. There is plenty wrong with what this woman wrote; and the best way to counter that is to criticize her with more speech, exactly what I’m doing." Completely agree with you. Let the Religious Right be the one sponsoring censorship. Censorship, to me, gets us nowhere. If everyone knew what this woman was asserting then it would've been our job to adress this issue and once and for all put it at rest. “First, whatever the legal or constitutional issues involved (whether this is a private school not bound by the First Amendment or a state school that is), it was lame to punish this woman for writing the column. There is plenty wrong with what this woman wrote; and the best way to counter that is to criticize her with more speech, exactly what I’m doing.”

Completely agree with you.

Let the Religious Right be the one sponsoring censorship.

Censorship, to me, gets us nowhere. If everyone knew what this woman was asserting then it would’ve been our job to adress this issue and once and for all put it at rest.

]]> By: Emproph http://www.positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-670100 Emproph Sat, 10 May 2008 21:34:38 +0000 http://positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-670100 Spot freaking-on man! Spot freaking-on man!

]]> By: Jason Kuznicki http://www.positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-670097 Jason Kuznicki Sat, 10 May 2008 21:28:56 +0000 http://positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-670097 I think Ernie has a very good point -- it's not about logic or reason. It's about justifying a belief they already have, whatever the cost in consistency. Also, I'll just note that once you've gone down this road, and said one or two ridiculous things in support of whatever you happened to have initially believed without reason, it seemingly just gets easier from there... I think Ernie has a very good point — it’s not about logic or reason. It’s about justifying a belief they already have, whatever the cost in consistency.

Also, I’ll just note that once you’ve gone down this road, and said one or two ridiculous things in support of whatever you happened to have initially believed without reason, it seemingly just gets easier from there…

]]> By: Ernie http://www.positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-670072 Ernie Sat, 10 May 2008 20:47:51 +0000 http://positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-670072 The reason they'll never stop in the face of innumerable failures is because their position isn't one of reason or logic. It's one of emotion and prejudice. They feel so deeply that being gay is "just wrong" that nothing will convince them otherwise. If there was a logical argument that could possibly sway these people, they would have all changed their minds 50 years ago. They don't *want* understanding. They just want to get their way. It's the same reason that Exodus continues to exist in spite of the dismal record it has. If just one homosexual gets cured in their eyes, then that's proof enough for them. The thousands of others who go uncured with the "treatment" just weren't trying hard enough or something. The reason they’ll never stop in the face of innumerable failures is because their position isn’t one of reason or logic. It’s one of emotion and prejudice. They feel so deeply that being gay is “just wrong” that nothing will convince them otherwise. If there was a logical argument that could possibly sway these people, they would have all changed their minds 50 years ago. They don’t *want* understanding. They just want to get their way.

It’s the same reason that Exodus continues to exist in spite of the dismal record it has. If just one homosexual gets cured in their eyes, then that’s proof enough for them. The thousands of others who go uncured with the “treatment” just weren’t trying hard enough or something.

]]> By: XGW Digest: May 10, 2008 | Ex-Gay Watch http://www.positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-669787 XGW Digest: May 10, 2008 | Ex-Gay Watch Sat, 10 May 2008 08:59:40 +0000 http://positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-669787 [...] Jonathan Rowe dismantles World Net Daily’s latest screed [...] [...] Jonathan Rowe dismantles World Net Daily’s latest screed [...]

]]> By: bls http://www.positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-669503 bls Fri, 09 May 2008 20:18:14 +0000 http://positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-669503 Yes, that's the one: Rivendell. I've heard other people quote these figures, too - and then go on to argue that gay people aren't discriminated against, because: look how rich we are! We really have to set the record straight on this; it's yet <i>another</i> phony weapon against us in the "religious" right's arsenal. As soon as one set of "data" is shown to be fake, another set appears. They never stop. Yes, that’s the one: Rivendell. I’ve heard other people quote these figures, too - and then go on to argue that gay people aren’t discriminated against, because: look how rich we are!

We really have to set the record straight on this; it’s yet another phony weapon against us in the “religious” right’s arsenal. As soon as one set of “data” is shown to be fake, another set appears.

They never stop.

]]> By: Alex http://www.positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-669481 Alex Fri, 09 May 2008 19:52:14 +0000 http://positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-669481 <i>Where is she getting this “economic data’? There are no citations at all.</i> The numbers she's quoting are identical to the ones in <a href="http://www.mediabuyerplanner.com/2007/08/15/gays-lesbians-earn-far-more-than-media-us-household-income/" rel="nofollow">this survey</a>. As you predicted, the survey is entirely self-selected respondents from various glossy magazines and websites targeted at gay and lesbian consumers. The purpose of the survey isn't to accurately portray the GLBT community - it's to portray the readership of these media outlets for the purposes of advertising sales. Where is she getting this “economic data’? There are no citations at all.

The numbers she’s quoting are identical to the ones in this survey.

As you predicted, the survey is entirely self-selected respondents from various glossy magazines and websites targeted at gay and lesbian consumers. The purpose of the survey isn’t to accurately portray the GLBT community - it’s to portray the readership of these media outlets for the purposes of advertising sales.

]]> By: a. mcewen http://www.positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-669418 a. mcewen Fri, 09 May 2008 18:02:54 +0000 http://positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-669418 I don't think her suspension is a punishment per se. As a human resources officer at the University of Toledo, she is responsible for overseeing diversity and equity. I think the university has an obligation to investigate whether or not she can do her job adequately in light of what she said. The comments do show a pontential bias against a group of students she has been hired to service. I don’t think her suspension is a punishment per se. As a human resources officer at the University of Toledo, she is responsible for overseeing diversity and equity.

I think the university has an obligation to investigate whether or not she can do her job adequately in light of what she said. The comments do show a pontential bias against a group of students she has been hired to service.

]]> By: Jonathan Rowe http://www.positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-669397 Jonathan Rowe Fri, 09 May 2008 17:35:19 +0000 http://positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-669397 BLS: You have to be careful about studies and controls. I think the 17% less figure carefully controls for everything and shows perfectly situated gays v. straights. That's fine if you are checking for discrimination and indeed, all things being equal a straight man (esp. one with a wife and kids) is probably more likely to get the job. The notion that gays make more probably results from gays being better educated and more qualified on average (hence the things that are controlled away in those studies). In other words if you compare apples to apples, you see discrimination against gay men and gay men make less. But it's also possible that gay men as a group are a significantly better set of apples. BLS:

You have to be careful about studies and controls. I think the 17% less figure carefully controls for everything and shows perfectly situated gays v. straights. That’s fine if you are checking for discrimination and indeed, all things being equal a straight man (esp. one with a wife and kids) is probably more likely to get the job. The notion that gays make more probably results from gays being better educated and more qualified on average (hence the things that are controlled away in those studies). In other words if you compare apples to apples, you see discrimination against gay men and gay men make less. But it’s also possible that gay men as a group are a significantly better set of apples.

]]> By: Robert http://www.positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-669375 Robert Fri, 09 May 2008 16:12:47 +0000 http://positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-669375 I am just curious if you threw in statistics about African American GLBT folks if the numbers of highly educated high income earning homosexuals would go down. I, as a black gay man, would also argue against the point that biology plays a pivitol role in educational attainment and income. I feel this post is slanted towards a white gay perspective. This issue of race as a protected civil rights category and sexuality as such is a thorny one for me. I do beleive that as GLBT folk we should have protections however I also acknowledge that white privilege and racism do exist within the GLBT community and it should be addressed. I have heard arguments similar to the suspended administrators one and I understand how black people fail to grasp the oppression of white gays and lesbians as many of them are land owners, business owners, college educated and otherwise successful. The disparities between college graduation rates, rates of imprisonment for black males (gay and straight), earned income, and home ownership are vast between the color lines and need to be investigated and discussed alongside the discussions of homophobia, racism, and classism in this country. I am just curious if you threw in statistics about African American GLBT folks if the numbers of highly educated high income earning homosexuals would go down. I, as a black gay man, would also argue against the point that biology plays a pivitol role in educational attainment and income. I feel this post is slanted towards a white gay perspective. This issue of race as a protected civil rights category and sexuality as such is a thorny one for me. I do beleive that as GLBT folk we should have protections however I also acknowledge that white privilege and racism do exist within the GLBT community and it should be addressed. I have heard arguments similar to the suspended administrators one and I understand how black people fail to grasp the oppression of white gays and lesbians as many of them are land owners, business owners, college educated and otherwise successful. The disparities between college graduation rates, rates of imprisonment for black males (gay and straight), earned income, and home ownership are vast between the color lines and need to be investigated and discussed alongside the discussions of homophobia, racism, and classism in this country.

]]> By: Ethan http://www.positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-669371 Ethan Fri, 09 May 2008 15:38:56 +0000 http://positiveliberty.com/2008/05/the-religious-rights-unreal-understanding-of-homosexuality.html#comment-669371 Also, to augment tilts_at_windmills' post: Many of these higher-income self-identified gays live in major metro areas where they can be self-identified AND not fear for their safety and the safety of the loved ones and/or property. These areas have a higher cost of living so I would think that the majority of the gay "Super-Earners" are actually making a lot less when you curve their earnings against the cost of living. According to the figures above, my fiance and I are one of the "entitled gays" but living in Los Angeles means that even with a combined income of 100K+ per year, we cannot afford to buy a house (or a condo, for that matter) in the area that we currently live. Also, to augment tilts_at_windmills’ post: Many of these higher-income self-identified gays live in major metro areas where they can be self-identified AND not fear for their safety and the safety of the loved ones and/or property. These areas have a higher cost of living so I would think that the majority of the gay “Super-Earners” are actually making a lot less when you curve their earnings against the cost of living.

According to the figures above, my fiance and I are one of the “entitled gays” but living in Los Angeles means that even with a combined income of 100K+ per year, we cannot afford to buy a house (or a condo, for that matter) in the area that we currently live.

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